you know - what ever happened to a couple actully fulfilling their respective marriage vows?? you know, til death due us part. (making a point only drake - not judging you at all )

i know things happen. people change. people grow apart. with kids, it becomes more difficult.

it seems today it is "cool" for a woman to be divorced on own her own. a woman (in court) gets all most everything. which by the way is bullshit? why does the man get screwed??

i respect those elders who rode out the hard times. and remained married for decades after decades. married people today give up so easliy it makes me sick. divorce is too fucking easy for the woman. get your 1/2 and go fuck around. while you have the kids. nice.

the kids - oh yeah - abandoned before they even know it. the wife says she "is out of love." the man wants to screw around. my question - why the fuck get married in the first place. young love can be such a joke!

i love my wife. very very much. til death do us part. i know it. i believe it. but if she ever came to me and said, "later." what the fuck choice would i have? none. then get screwed in court, have a major custody battle and live in anger over something i had no control over. i pray to God that this never happen to me. i could not imagine some other guy raising my kids for me. no fucking way!!!

i am beginning to think the whole institution of marriage is a fucking joke. ( i say this because some friends of mine "quit" their marriage ) leaving their kids in a fucking shamble. and not giving a shit because they are now "free." free to drink and whore around oh and by the way, have the ex pay for it all!! bullshit - fuck that time and time again!

vows are sacred. what is going on? fuck depserate housewives and their slutty, pill popping, statuatory rape bahavior.......

when are couples going to stand up and take resp. for their actions?? you got married. stay married! if you are getting abused - get out. cheated on - get out. but to hand over some lame ass bullshit excuse because you are a little bored or depressed is a load of crap!!!!

i feel for you drake. and i pray for you. i want you to find some happiness. i have it, but see so many women willing to chuck it all so they can do something else.

love is great. marriage is great! i just wish couples would stand up for the man or woman they married!

thoses vows are there for a reason! maybe a warning perhaps..

when your wife/she asked you for sex drake - did you fuck her?? i would have rather beat off right in front of her than give her sex after she tells you she is out of there......why didn't she just go fuck someone at the bar??

drake - i think better days might be ahead of you.

God Bless and be strong!!!
 

drake - forgive me for my rambling, but that felt fucking good!!!!!

nick
 

no problem with the rant, Nick. it actually gave me a nice laugh.

you expressed many of the same feelings I've had over the years. this was much more of a blow to me when my second wife ditched me. now it's hardly a surprise.

did i fuck her? yep. i was tempted to act in a way similar to what you described, but i honestly feel no hostility towards my wife. i just feel bad for her, and beaten down and tired from the past eighteen months of trying to persuade her that God can make up for the gaps that really do exist in our relationship.

the problem with most of us, even those who confess Christ, is that we want the feelings before we will make the real commitment.

i struggle with this almost daily. so i have a hard time judging her, even though i don't understand why she doesn't get it.

i guess i agree with your comment about the 'elders' who stuck it out, but i also have known how stupidly painful that decision can be, even for the kids. i was such a kid once, whose parents stayed together because that's what they were supposed to do. however, i think it caused me more pain than it alleviated. but that's just speculation, since i have no idea how it would have felt to have been a kid in a single parent household in the '60's and '70's.

anyway, thanks for your passion. i too hope that you never have to experience this bullshit, because you are right -- once she decides it's over, you're screwed.
 

the court system is so fucked up. why does a good man get bent over by a wife who decides she is "unhappy" and either threatens to leave or files for a divorce for no real reason other than depression/unhappiness? should have thought about this prior to saying "i do." it is complete bullshit!

i know it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

women have it made. take 1/2 and the kids and gain their "freedom" back.

while the husband and children suffer the shame and neglect. and for what - so she can run off into the sunset with her girlfriends and complain how bad they had it in their marriage. and then starting fucking and giving blow jobs again!!! ( the upside might be that we/men can go about fucking anything that moves again - but that is no life and I know it! )

the courts and bitchy women with too much time on their hands really pisses me off beyond belief.........what a fucking joke!
 

to be absolutely fair about it, I also have to confess that we men often jump into these relationships too quickly, without taking the time to get to know what kind of woman we are marrying.

for me it's always been about the sex. but it's been much on my mind lately how our culture sort of paints this picture of women as virtuous victim of male violence and depravity.

guess what? the Bible makes it pretty clear the women are every bit as fucked up as men. but we too often forget that when we're looking for someone to be with.

my only hope and prayer is that i finally get it this time, and look at whomever i'm with the next time with a more discerning eye.

i truly believe that there are good, faithful women out there, but they are very few and far between. basically, you're up against it because the culture of feminist victimization has won out at the moment. women tend to act like they either want to be men or that they want to exterminate us from the face of the planet.

in reality, i think that's untrue. i think that most women want exactly want God said they would want when He pronounced the curse on Eve. To be the cherished heart of their strong, loving, protecting man.

Mixed messages, man. Mixed messages.
 

Drake,
This is a bunch of crap. If you're looking for someone who fits qualifications, that's exactly what you're going to find, but it's never going to make you happy. You are a puzzle piece, and you need to find the piece that snaps into you, on every level. You need the person who understands what you say, and to whom you can and must say everything. Otherwise, you might as well be alone. It's not a question of how fucked up or unfucked up they are when you find them, either. If you're both honest, you will move together towards health and growth.
 

Jeanne,

what exactly is the 'crap' here? i simply stated that in the future, i would be better served to get to know the person i am interested in having a relationship with better.

by setting that as an aim, i acknowledge my own pattern of one-dimensional thinking in making these decisions in the past -- namely, dominated by the sexual aspect.

i believe that it takes time to really get to know someone, and that probably gets more in the way than helps in deciding whether the other person is the missing piece to my jigsaw puzzle.

i don't believe i'm looking for 'qualifications', but i don't have a problem thinking of it like that. in my experience, there are just some things that have to be there in order for it to work -- no matter how much you may think you are 'clicking'.

in my current situation, we just simply don't have enough of the same perspective on things to get connected in any meaningful way. i personally believe that God can change this, but there is no agreement on where we need to go to allow that to happen.

my comments about being 'fucked up' have more to do with crap assumptions about women in general in our culture. again, we won't agree on this, but real honesty begins with both parties admitting that they are, outside of God's grace, totally fucked up. and that neither is capable of truly making the other happy.

that doesn't mean that you can't be soulmates, best friends and incredibly in love with one another, but i think it's time that women in this society pulled their collective heads out of their collective asses and stop believing fairy tales.
 

love the last line drake - it is sooooo true!!!!!!
 

What fairy tales? I didn't say the other person made you happy, though they sure do help. I just said that the other person was an integral part of everything. I guess you have to have it happen to recognize it. It does happen, and it's what fairy tales are based on, I would guess. But it happens just as much for the man as the woman. And getting to know Johan well enough to know this was it took one evening, for both of us. It's 20 years later in a few months.

The crap is the idea of seeing someone as a sum of their parts, instead of as a unique being unlike all other unike beings. Not just a different mixture of parts, but a unique substance.
 

isn't uniqueness really just a different mixture of the same parts?

a little more of this, a little less of that?

i'm happy for you, Jeanne, in that you were able to connect so quickly and lastingly.

i never said it couldn't happen.

it's just that every time I thought it happened, i was wrong.

or was i?

some people, like the last two women i married, tend to discard whatever they believed whenever things got hard.

when those times come -- and they do for everyone -- i don't believe that there's some kind of mystical bond that keeps you stupid and happy and together. i think it's what's in your character, your core, your choices, that keeps you standing firm.

that's what's been missing from my relationships. even, at times, in myself.
 

jeanne:

women in the USA have the courts in their backpockets. women want the fairy tale 24/7. put some hard times and challenges and the first thing they do is cry "DIVORCE." Why? It is just too too damn easy for them!

A judge ouught to make daily sex a requirement for married couples who are in trouble. followed up by monthly blow jobs and then whatever....

just quit giving me this " i am so confused bullshit...and tired bullshit because i am with the kids more than you......fuck that!!!

there should be a test people have to pass in order to get married and it should be the law that the man gets the kids 100% of the time. the divorce rate would diminish to 0 rapidly.

also make the law the woman gets no child support ( only if their is no abuse and/or infidelity)

our courts fuck the man! this needs to change......

i am sure you and johan have had some disagreements in which you considered killing one antoehr....if you have not....then you dont love each other....
 

Compulsary sex? I wonder about the person who'd want to stay with someone who only would have sex with them if forced to.
 

Drake,
Unique is not a unique mixture, it's a unique "essence". It's like primary colours. They are completely distinct. No single person I know for real even reminds me of anyone else. How they behave can be similar, but that's another matter.
 

jeanne:

do you have children? if so, would you tear them away from your children because you were "mad" at johan? (or just unhappy for some small amount of time) and then expect him to pay for you and them?

be honest.
 

Certainly every individual is unique in their personality or essence, if you will. However, there are still some universally applicable standards of belief, intelligence, interests, commitments and character that can be set up when deciding who to be with and who not to be with.

It's not terribly different at that level than choosing your friends. There are just some people I'd rather not hang around with. Not necessarily a judgement, but more of a preference.

I am certainly going to try and avoid making the same mistake of being with someone that I can't even relate to outside of the bedroom.

Nor am I going to waste any more of my time trying to build an intimate relationship with someone who doesn't hold to the faith.
 

Nick,
If I had married someone it turned out I couldn't live with, I would to the best of my ability have lived near them, allowing our children to have as close to a normal family life as possible. I would hope to be able to depend on my ex to help me financially if I needed it, because it would affect the life of his children. I would never have been involved with anyone I couldn't trust at that level. I would just as assuredly help him, if he were the one with financial difficulties.
We've been on the wrong end of a seperation, since Johan has a child from an earlier relationship, and believe me I am aware of what a woman can get away with when they have custody, and I don't mean economically. But blanket judgements are always stupid, and laws are always innadequate. Each situation demands its own solution.
 

Drake,
If you have to decide, don't do it.
 

jeanne:

i am not sure i see a point to your words. you see:

ex's - male or female are evil and vindictive. esp. when the courts intervene.

i despise how you say "his kids" when taking his $$. what happened to "our" kids? a slip perhaps?? i don't think so. ( i am cool with divorce when a spouse cheats or is getting abused ) not for some lame excuse to get 1/2 the kids and free $$$. bullshit!

i am sorry you have witnessed some ugliness of your own with an ex. believe me that woman know how to get to your husband. and she will do so until she finds the Lord. if she finds the Lord. and i pray she does.

marriage can be great if only 2 people relaize the vows they spoke. it is pretty simple. too many people give into temptation because they hit some hard times. i pity people like that. but hell - one can never tell what his/her spouse is capable of.......


so in your world, you should just keep moving until you relate within a 24 hour period? not that simple. and you know it.

what is johan tells you "later." then what?
 

Nick,
I was describing an imaginary person. I said "his" kids because I was imagining that even if he wanted nothing to do with me, he would care about "his" kids.

I never said it had to be quick, I said it didn't have to be long, the way the Drake said it should be. The only thing I can say is that you know when it happens, and it takes away the possibility of "later". That's not anything I think about at all. I merely said to the Drake, that he should wait for the ONE, not do a consumer's check list before purchase.
 

The reason, originally, that women recieved child-support, is because they do not have the potential for making money that men do in this system. Even in Sweden, which prides itself on striving after equality, the difference in salaries between men and women in the same jobs is considerable. Added to that, women's career advancement suffers considerably from the period of time they spend at home with children and out of the job market. That doesn't mean that some individuals don't take advantage of the legal system to leach off of their exes. There is such a thing as a pre-nuptual agreement, and I would suggest that with such a cynical attitude to relationships and such a poor judgement of character as you seem think is the norm, a person should stop complaining and draw one up.
 

You know, Nick, judging from the vindictiveness of your early comments, I would never have taken you for a religious man.
 

jeanne:

you see young love is so innocent. it is when the woman learns to play certain games ( ususally thanks to her divorced friends ) that the marriage begins to crumble after years of true happiness.

oh i am religious. but will fight for my children's well being with a vengence second to none.

i seemed to have hit a nerve. and by the way - young love ( with working people like me/wife ) never even think of prenups because we are "marrying forever." (at least i am)

again, pay attention to the vows that rolled out of your mouth.............instead of the 10k ring i put on your hand.........

i would respect a woman who would choose to leave on her own and make it own her own...and let me take care of the family that she chose to devastate!

listen to yourself jeanne....you are not nearly the experienced young lady i thought you were!

have a nice weeked!
 

I'm quite old. 46 to be exact. And you've lost me. Experienced in what?
You didn't hit a nerve so much as piss me off by assuming I'd made a slip, and infering that I would take anyone's money.
And a woman leaving a marraige and leaving the kids with her husband solely is hurting them as much as taking them from him. Nothing to respect there.

Have a nice weekend yourself.
 

Drake: I'm so sorry to hear that your marriage has ended. Getting married is such a leap of faith ... I'm convinced that even in the best ones you never really, truly know what the other person is thinking. I'll keep you in my prayers: that the house situation will work out and your kids will be OK.
 

jeanne:

you called me vindictive earlier and that you think i am not a religious man. i knew you would feel that way. it is how a lot of women are made. and how they respond when challenged by a strong man. let me ask a few questions:

why am i vindictive in your eyes? is it:

1) because i refuse to leave a wife that i love who is hurting temporarily?

2) is it because she threatens to leave and take my kids because she is merely unhappy at the time? (for the first tme in a 10+ year relationship that has been great?

3) is it because i want to be with my kids and raise them while she goes off into the sunset looking for happiness eslewhere??

4) is it because i refuse to pay for a woman to live in "our" house without me and invite other men into my children's lives??

5) is it because i have no fear telling a judge how my/our children are to be raised?

6) is it becasue i do not see divorce as an option unless there is cheating or abuse??

7) is it becasue i believe in til death due us part??

there is nothing vindictive jeanne. you are 46. act like it. you see too many people, especially women, tkae the esy way out.

unless they have a husband that loves "her" and the children. Corinthians 13 - Faith, hope and love - and of them all love is the greatest.

i will do anything to protect my realtionship with my wife. if she bolts, my children are MY responsibilty, not hers!!!

nothing vindicitve. just hard truth. which you clearly failed to see. i ask you to see it from my point of view - and know that there are some VERY good men out here that are sick and tired of "tap dancing " through their marriage in order to please a newly found mediocre wife......a desperate housewife that is looking for greener pastures....


this is my married life....in love and loving my childres....just waiting until my wife comes back from the "pills" to try again to deal with erevry day life jsut one day at a time....

God Bless us Both Jeanne! You see, I am human and hurt too....but i go on as best i can....know that God is in control...
 

Nick,
Mathew 5:38-48.

I'm surprised that you seem to think you know how I feel about things, or that you group me together with women as a whole without any basis for that reaction.

I personally think that people should't marry at all until they're surer than most people are. Having married, they shouldn't have children unless they really want them, and will carry out the responsibility to them to have a family as long as it's possible. When it isn't possible, or when the children are probably more damaged by two people staying together than they would be by them being apart, they should seperate, but stay close enough to compensate for the split. I don't believe in following vows. I never was married in a church, and the permanence of our relationship was clear long before our civil vows.
It's not a question of who "gets" the children, it's a question of who the children "get", which should be both parents, if they're going to be well and happy.

People shouldn't make vows before they wouldn't need them. Not everyone has to marry. I for one never planned on marrying or raising a family before I met my husband.
 

jeanne:

myt kids are loved. by both parents. expect one parent is experiencing some mental challenges at the moment. pills seem to be the cure.

i am not sure, but am doing everything i can to make things "normal" for my family.

i'll check Matthew 5 out today. thanks!
 

I read the Verse. it is so hard to turn the other cheek..i do not know if i am that strong....my first thoughts are to strike back.........pray for me.......

nick
 

enough about me..how are you on this monday drake?
 

What do you mean by mental challenges, if it's not prying?
 

today, i am in a training class without connections to the Web, but they hope to fix that by tomorrow.

nick,

i am feeling your pain. you are faced with the real impact of the marriage vows.

things happen. illness. accidents. personal growth. any number of things that can tempt one to bail out on the vows.

i deeply respect your commitment, and i am definitely praying for you.

as for me, i signed the documents on Saturday. i am not as hurt by this as i have been in the past, but it still does sting my pride.

more later.
 

basically a hard time dealing with everyday issues: example)

1) husband who likes attention 2) motherhood 3) part time work 4) gossip 5) nosey friends (and i use the work with tongue in cheek) 6) poor relationships with her parents 7) relationships with others. 8) smoking ) declining health issues 9) stress 10) financial issues 10) somre material envy

on the whole - she just has trouble dealing with everyday issues... and refuses "talking" to a professional, but is willing to take anti-depressants to make things more tolerable.....

it stinks, but i'll go through it with her and do my best to get her through this because i love her and want her back......the way she used to be or better......
 

She seems to either be generally depressed, or she's unhappy about something in particular but isn't facing it, so it's spreading out to affect everything.

Turning the other cheek is really hard, and I don't know if any of us manage it, especially not at the knee-jerk level. But advocating the opposite is a no-no.

I hope things work out. I would suggest not discussing details with people outside of your marraige. I just wanted to know if you were referring to mental illness, which is a little different (perhaps). It's really only about the two of you. Relationships are weakened by exposure, it seems to me. Perhaps your wife is doing the right thing, not seeing a counselor. Good luck, and try to be supportive rather than demanding.
 

Drake,
I hope I'm not taking advantage of your air-space in your absence.
 

jeanne:

i am at the point where i really don't care how or what she feels any more. i will just close my mouth and watch this woman self destruct.

she has to want to get better. on her own. without the help of any one. and get over the "whoa is me attitude."

i truly will pray for her.

nick
 

nick,

it sounds like you are in a really tough place. i know a little about where you are. sometimes God just calls you to let go, and not try to 'fix' the situation.

you are right. she has to want to get better. if you know of a Bible-based recovery program in your area, i'd encourage you to check it out.

yes, you. let her know what you are doing and what you learn. and let her know that you would love it if she went herself. but don't force the issue. get the support you need for yourself, because you are going to get sucked dry if you don't.

there are a lot of people of faith out there who can relate to where you are and are willing to just listen and offer their friendship.

maybe God is calling you to something through all of this.
 

for the first time...i am willing to do just that..

that being to just let God's plan unfold and take me where I have to go.......

thy will be done...